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I’m Wesley Morris. And this is “Cannonball.” Today, they call it “The Late Show,” but I mean, they’re putting it to bed awfully early.

I almost can’t believe I’m saying this. But tonight is the last episode of “The Late Show with Stephen Colbert.” CBS has done pulled the plug, probably prematurely. But I mean, welcome to late night television, whose thing for drama sometimes brings it closer to daytime soap. But now the crisis, I don’t know, it’s existential. There’s no talk show going into the late night slot.

Meanwhile, over at ABC, Jimmy Kimmel lives in almost weekly risk of cancelation now. And their crimes can basically be boiled down to offending the president. But there’s one late night show that keeps on keeping on. And maybe it’s also time to put that one down. It’s been 51 years. And it really might be time to say goodbye to “Saturday Night Live.”

For the last five years, I have thought, now’s the time. Just end it. End it. This show was never about polish. And part of the draw is the chaos and magic of live television, where anything can go wrong. And you’ve always had to put up with weak sketches. But it wasn’t always this sad. “SNL” used to do it for me. I mean, I’d pick an obvious recurring sketch like The Californians.

I mean, it was supposed to be a joke on — I mean, I don’t know, so many things, soap operas, LA’s driving culture, the rich, chardonnay.

I mean, one of the things that’s funny about this sketch also is just somebody is going to lose it.

It also managed to transcend satire and turn it into this amazing kind of nonsense sketch. Whenever the writing dies, the comedy is still there for The Californians. And then it could take whatever was topical and hook that to a great character. Sometimes you get a catchphrase.

I’m Hans and Franz. And we’re here to pump you up.

And then there’s Dieter doing his little sprocket dance. Dum, da, da. And the Sally O’Malley just I’m 50.

And Colleen Rafferty —

Colleen Rafferty is like alien abduction interrogations. They’re just like —

Five stars. But it’s been a minute since the show created a character with that kind of stickiness. This 51st season has been really dry. The show actually needs maybe more stars. But it definitely needs sharper ideas to turn some of this cast into stars. Plus, I mean, I just think the show has become extremely reliant on celebrities and trendiness. Famous people have made cameos throughout the history of the show. And sometimes magic can happen when they do. But a lot of the time, I’m just home watching, hungry for some laughs.

Take this sketch from this season with Teyana Taylor that’s supposed to be a joke on the Broncos and Monday Night Football.

What exactly is the point of this sketch?

Is it that the Broncos quarterback has no personality? That Lisa Salters is bad at her job, or that her job is just weird?

Is it that Troy and Joe Buck are so square and lame that it’d be funny hearing them say the word Quefs over and over again?

All it makes me want to do is watch Quefs. I want to change the channel from whatever these people are doing, just to watch this fake show that is also probably just as bad, but it’ll definitely be more interesting than this non-satire satire.

So now I’m just wondering if it’s time for “Saturday Night Live” to become Saturday Night dead. Please, please wait. Sorry. Don’t hang up. I actually know a lot of smart people who don’t agree with this opinion. Like my guest today, Jason Zinoman. He’s a critic at “The Times.” And, he’s a great thinker about comedy and late night TV in general. I just wanted to talk about “The Late Show” going out of business, and what the value of keeping a show like “SNL” around might be.

So we’re going to talk about whether it’s worth saving. And whether I’m wrong.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

Jason Zinoman, welcome to “Cannonball.” I’m going to start by telling you just something that was on my mind last year.

Please.

“Saturday Night Live” turns 50 years old. And during the year of celebration of this 50th anniversary, I mean, it went on, from what, February to December? I don’t want to cast aspersions. I enjoyed a lot of it. But what I thought during that experience was, what if it just ended tonight? It was a good 50 years. Do I need a 51st? I don’t even think I needed like 37. But that’s me. Where are you in terms of your relationship to this show? I mean, if it ended tomorrow, how would you feel?

I’d be upset. I’d be upset. I mean, I have been where you are.

Oh, talk to me.

Yeah. I mean, in fact, I think one of the greatest traditions of “Saturday Night Live”—

Is wishing.

— is hating “Saturday Night Live” and specifically saying it used to be better.

Sure.

Right? That’s what everyone does. And the cliche is true, certainly with me, that your favorite cast is your first cast. I first watched it, and it was the Christopher Guest Martin Short, Billy Crystal year unlike any other year. And I fell in love with it there. And then I got hooked on it with the Jan Hooks, Phil Hartman, Dana Carvey. So I love that period. And that’s the greatest.

And then you got a moment — I don’t exactly track on this perfectly, but pretty close, where you have a moment where you see other sketch shows. You see “Monty Python,” you see “Chappelle’s Show,” you see “Mr. Show,” “Key and Peele,” and you’re like, this is funnier.

“Kids in the Hall.”

“Kids in the Hall.”

“Kids in the Hall.”

These are all more ambitious, funnier, better crafted comedy. Why isn’t “SNL” as good as this? And then you say, this is terrible. It’s bad. You start hating “SNL“. I’ve been there. I’ve also felt like it would be better if it’s gone. And now I’m in a new state. Now part of it, full disclosure, is part of our jobs is to follow the stuff.

Sure.

So I might have checked out if it wasn’t for professional responsibility. But I never did check out. And I’ve come to see that those shows we mentioned are doing something fundamentally different than “Saturday Night Live.”

Which is what?

So “Saturday Night Live” is actually not trying to be — it’s not organized to be the funniest show possible.

It’s not?

No, it doesn’t want to be that.

It’s not organized to be, or it is retroactively saying, you know, we were never organized to be the funniest show?

I think the way Lorne Michaels has organized the making of that show, as opposed to these other shows, it is deliberately not set up to be consistently as funny as it can be.

OK.

Right? So what’s it trying to be? And what are the evidence of it?

Wait. I want to start with how it’s not set up to do that.

All right. So first off, it’s live. Second of all, it’s weekly. And it’s weekly in this very peculiar way. This way has sort of developed over time, that they write these sketches last second. And the biggest thing is the cast. This is the most prestigious show in comedy on television. They could have anybody they want. They always get young unknowns. Why do they do that?

And I think there’s a couple. What they want to be is relevant, topical, and exciting. And one of the things about having young cast members is you see the making of a star. There’s something particularly exciting about seeing one of these “SNL” cast members. And there’s no doubt that “SNL” has produced more superstars in comedy than any other platform.

That’s not what we’re here to talk about. No, I mean, there’s no argument from me.

No, I know. But I’ll give you a comparison. I was watching the Spurs playoff game. And Dylan Harper had this incredible game. And in sports, it’s fun. We know Wemby is great. But we see this rookie do something incredible. And you’re like, oh, wait, this guy is going to be — he could be one of the best players in the game.

Yes.

That happens at “SNL” in the way it doesn’t happen in other shows consistently. And it happened this year. It happened this year with Ashley Padilla. And there is an excitement to that that is part of what the show does and cares about more than getting the most polished, funniest sketches that they possibly can every week, the most polished cast every week. And I think, yes, that 50th anniversary celebration went overboard. But what did it also say? Look at the interest in that show. How many things —

You mean the network generated interest?

No, no.

Or you mean like a viewer, a Saturday Night Live fans or regular watchers interest?

I mean, you’re 100 percent right. There is like a media interest, and there’s a network pushing it. But I don’t think there’s anything else in comedy right now that appeals to multiple generations.

Mm-hmm That’s true.

My kids, teenagers, they don’t share the same interests that their parents do. They don’t watch same things. But they’re interested in “SNL“. It’s one of the few things left in the culture where we have this common thing we can talk about over generations. And it’s unique. And I think it’s the remarkable thing.

Last year, there was a book on Lorne Michaels by Susan Morrison, which I recommend. And there was a documentary by Morgan Neville. And you really see that he’s a singular producer. He’s the great producer of our time. He’s managed to keep a television show relevant, not just on TV, but relevant for 50 years. Now what he hasn’t done are things we probably agree on. It’s often terrible. The sketches are hit and miss sometimes. And —

I mean, every week there’s a hit and miss. And I don’t about you, Jason, but I watch this show still to this day in its entirety. I go from the cold open to the 10 minutes to 1 or the 10 to 1 or whatever they call it. I mean, I’m there for most of the show.

And I just feel like many times, there’s not one sketch here that either lets a cast member shine or they miss shine. Or I just don’t know how this even got out of the garage, onto the set, and then into my home. These cast members aren’t that exciting as a class to me. They’re often indistinguishable. I find often, especially in sketches where the cast members have to be dressed the same, I can’t tell anybody apart sometimes.

Yeah, yeah.

But I guess I would wonder, what we lose without it.

Would you agree with this? If we lost it, nothing replaces it. Nothing would fill its space. And if anything would fill its space, it would be something fundamentally smaller and of lower ambition. What I learned from the Susan Morrison book and the documentary is that it’s a tremendously inefficient show. It’s got a ridiculous budget that doesn’t make any sense for television in 2026.

It’s one of these dinosaurs that operates like the internet didn’t happen. And they’ve got all these — and one of the beautiful things about “SNL” is because it has all these inefficiencies — and we see this in the media too. It’s like we’re so damn efficient, that we only do these narrow things. There’s room for out of a lot of mediocrity or worse, for weird stuff to bubble up.

That’s true. Yes. I mean, so this plays as a potential lab for weird stuff. And look, in 50 years, I have seen some of the funniest, weirdest things that I still think about because I saw them on “SNL“. I mean, Toonces the Driving Cat. Not even —

I got a shirt.

— close to —

I got a Toonces shirt

— not even close to the weirdest thing that’s happened on the show.

Yes.

But I mean, just a thing that has lodged itself like a completely illogical, feed of irreverence that just — it lives in me.

Yes.

Right? The theme song lives in me. This is all to say, I understand the value of the show. I just think it’s batting average has gotten very low.

Well, even if we stipulate the show’s terrible, everything you say, it’s no good, there’s no denying that it’s done a good job of weeding through people and cycling new people, and then reinventing itself while keeping the same bones of what it is.

Oh yes, it hasn’t changed in 51 years.

But the people have changed.

Yes, the people have changed.

And so that is like you’ve got a hit show and you’re going to bring these new people. That’s part of the DNA of the show. And I think it’s one of the strengths of the show. It’s one of the reasons why it’s a flexible institution. And I think historically, they’ve always come from improv houses.

Yes.

And with some stand-ups sprinkled in. I think a few years ago, they started to go more — tried to find people more from the internet. And the reason that I think Ashley —

I know where this is going.

— Ashley Padilla is successful, one, she’s older than most of them. She’s 32. She’s had some experience. And she’s had specifically the Groundlings, old school “SNL“. She’s actually an actress.

Is she the only Groundlings veteran or graduate or —

I think Mikey Day and Chloe Fineman also have Groundlings.

Who, at this point, are veterans on this show.

They’re the older. I think they’re before this shift. But I think Ashley is bringing something different to the mix.

Chops. You wrote a wonderful piece about close reading what she’s been doing this season on the show. And I think one of the best sketches on this season this year was the I guess we’ll call her the MAGA mom.

Yep.

Talk about the MAGA mom sketch and how the levels work in that.

The MAGA mom sketch is a great example, I think, of “SNL” operating at its best right now. Because it is about the thing that we’ve seen all over the place, which is — and how frustrating it can be — which is somebody realizing —

That’s the comedy of it.

— 10 years late, oh, I’m going to have a — turns out Donald Trump doesn’t always tell the truth. And I’m going to convert. And it’s about both the kind of preening naivete of that.

She’s gathered the family to sit in the living room —

To talk to her kids.

— because she has an announcement.

But it’s also about something bigger. So it’s topical, but it’s also about changing your mind and the ability to show grace to this person changing their mind.

Which she asks them to show her. Part of her wind up to revealing this about herself is this character is like, but you have to be nice. And when I tell you what I’m about to tell you, you cannot react.

The levels are she’s telling them she’s had this conversion. But she really wants them to get mad, and to get mad at them back, which speaks to our political moment. We all would rather fight with each other than actually —

See, I told you! I told you couldn’t handle it. That’s why people hate you.

So it’s politically smart. It’s like emotionally smart. But I would argue, the core of it, the core, the reason it actually is funny is her timing. Nobody else would deliver those lines the way she was. There’s a musicality, a baseline to the way she says —

She’s listening to whatever else is — whatever is happening with the four people on the sofa and what Alexander Skarsgard is doing, who plays her husband in this sketch. And she’s timing whatever it is she’s doing in some ways to what she’s hearing.

Completely, completely. In the moment — you also see again, another, I think, essential part of “Saturday Night Live” is the live part of it. And they’re breaking. The kids, the people, the actors playing, the kids are breaking in that moment.

They’re both trying not to laugh in character and as actors. The fun of that, it becomes not about politics or about this family. It becomes about us watching these sketch performers trying not to break in a way that can only be suspenseful in a show that you know is live.

We’ll come back to this live situation. But I want to come back to Ashley Padilla for a second. Because the other thing that’s great about her, because you really convinced — I mean, I knew I liked her. But then you put that spotlight on her. And the other thing that’s great about her in these sketches is she has a wonderful voice. There are two great voices on this show right now. The other one is Marcelo Hernandez. And they need to figure out something to do with that voice.

Yes, he should have four characters.

And Sebastian Maniscalco is hilarious. Yeah.

And that’s an impersonation. But he’s identified — he knows what’s funny and ridiculous about that guy.

Yes, yes.

But Ashley Padilla, there’s something just mellifluous in her raised voice.

Yep.

I think her and Marcelo are the backbone right now. But I mean, I think Sarah Sherman does something specific that is really interesting, and all her the gore stuff that she does is interesting. And there’s a few — I can’t say this is a great year. But this is a year that showed promise. So let’s look at that. The sketch I want to point to, which is Auctioneers in a Crumbling Marriage, which is with Sarah Sherman and Matt Damon. And —

I love this sketch.

It’s the 10 to 1 sketch where they take a big swing.

Which means you’re asleep and the best sketches happen —

Which is —

Oops.

Here’s a big difference between —

That doesn’t always happen, which is why we go to sleep. I just want to say.

I didn’t watch this episode live. So I just woke up and saw people are talking about. And they were talking about this sketch.

This sketch is a satire of scenes from a marriage. And it’s this couple who’s having a marital spat. But they’re speaking in the familiar cadence of an auctioneer who’s saying, 1,000, 2000, 3004. And the idea is, what if these people always talk like that but without ever explaining it or underlining it?

Yes, almost immediately, though. Yeah.

And they get more and more difficult. So it becomes about language. It’s a comedy of language. And “SNL” at worse is all about cue cards. That’s what drives me nuts.

Jason, this is a huge pet peeve of mine.

Me too.

It’s gotten more cue cardy as the years go on.

Agreed.

And the more famous the person, the less time there is to rehearse. This is like such a tangent. Anyway, keep —

No, no, no, I’m with you. I’m with you. And, I mean, I think I could justify it because of the ridiculous structure.

I didn’t catch Matt Damon. He definitely had cue cards. But I didn’t catch him looking.

Neither did I.

I mean —

Oh, I think — maybe I’m wrong, but I think Sarah Sherman memorized those lines.

Oh, I think these were memorized.

Yeah.

I mean, somebody was clearly there holding something they could see or however they used the teleprompter cue card situation. But I was really dialed in a way that I’m typically not with these sketches because I’m just looking at them look past the person they’re in a scene with.

But part of what made this so thrilling was you’ve got these two performers who are preparing — they’re so prepared. I mean, it’s funny. It’s kind of all awesome, dictionary definition awesome to see. So when you see something like this and you’re just like this is what should happen every week. The cue cards drive me nuts, Jason.

Yeah, yeah.

I can’t take the reliance on the cue cards. And listen, I went back and looked at — I just was watching some old sketches just to see was this always true? And it wasn’t, or it wasn’t as obvious that the Trump Loy of where the cue cards were placed and the actors were blocked must have been different or something, because I can’t catch Glenn Close using those cue cards.

Right, right.

The great Patrick Swayze Chris Farley dance off to become a Chippendales dancer.

I don’t know. I mean, even if they are reading, Mike Myers, Kevin Kneeland and Jan Hooks play the judges of this dance off between Patrick Swayze and Chris Farley. I don’t see any cue cards happening there. And I’m not thinking about it.

I know you’ve been put through a long, long audition, and it’s been hard, but I think that in itself is a testament to how good both of you are and just how difficult our choice is. I wish I could just flip a coin and be done with it, but we can’t. We’re Chippendales. Marcy, music.

Right. That’s actually a great example, because this is what “SNL” has always done well, which is that even though some amazing writers have come through there, like George Meyer, the Toonces, all sorts of brilliant — Conan, obviously. It’s fundamentally about performers.

Yes.

And that Patrick Swayze and Chris Farley, they’re just — The commitment is hilarious!

Will you come out tonight

Everyone’s trying to get it right

And it’s timeless because of those performers. And that’s when the cue cards kind of — Are they there? Are they not? Does it matter? The lines don’t matter. That’s why, if you compare it — There are sketch shows like, I would say, Mr. Show, Monty Python, which lean on the cleverness of the premise and the wit of the lines.

Yeah, but those are taped shows.

Yes.

The same was true for Kids in the Hall. I mean, to me, I was always happier to watch Kids in the Hall, great Canadian sketch show —

Yes.

Than “SNL“, most of the time. But I think that — Anyway.

To support your point, It’s possible to do both. Like the Ben Stiller Show comes to mind.

Oh, my God! The Ben Stiller Show! One of the great sketch shows, I mean, ever!

Ever, ever.

And was that writerly? Was that performance? It was both.

It was both.

It was both. So you could —

And that show had a deep bench.

Oh, my God. Yes, yes. So great, so great. With Jeanine Garofalo.

I totally forgot about the Ben Stiller Show, but I watched it every week. When Ben Stiller started, I was like — Ben Stiller. In Living Color, to me, many weeks, was a better sketch show than Saturday Night Live.

Yes.

Right? Not live. Taped. Didn’t matter, because people broke.

Yeah.

Right? Like the actors would break. There’d be crazy things that would happen in these sketches that you can’t believe is happening in prime time, let alone at 11:52. So I think there’s a kind of professionalism, I mean, just like comedic professionalism, that I think is kind of missing now, and it’s just too much of a crapshoot for me.

Yeah.

It’s just too much of a crapshoot. And I’m not getting — One Matt Damon out of what? How many guests did they have this year? How many episodes? 22 or something?

Yeah. Sarsgaard. You had some other —

Right.

But look. I do think it goes into the — The liveness of it is part of it. Like, the guest host is a fascinating anomaly. Nothing else is like that on television. And it’s a huge risk. You’re going to perhaps torpedo a whole show if you have somebody who isn’t as talented as Matt Damon.

Hello, Tom Brady.

Yeah, exactly. There you go. There you go. But you could also get — Any time John Mulaney is a host —

Yes.

I’m going to be excited. I mean, watch “SNL” more than I do. I don’t watch every single episode live.

I don’t watch it every week, but I watch most weeks. OK.

Yeah.

So you think there are things about it — Let’s just say you talked me down.

I’m glad to hear it. OK.

Let’s say you talked me down.

But I also agree on the details of your argument.

All right, fine. You talked me down. So, we’re going to take a break. I want to expand what we’re really talking about here, I think. Because part of the reason that I started really thinking about this “SNL” cancellation question is there’s another show that’s actually going off the air right now.

And part of the scandalous thought I had was, “Is the wrong show being canceled? Should the Stephen Colbert Late Show stay and “SNL” go?” It had a good run, “SNL“. It’s fine. Anyway, we’ll take a break.

I got thoughts on that.

And when we come back, we’ll just talk about what late night is, whether or not we need it, and why. We’ll be right back.

OK, we’re back.

Yes.

We’re talking about “SNL“, but we’re also kind of talking about — I would like to now think about what late night television is, what it is good for. What is watching network television after the news? Because that’s when a lot of these shows would be on. Every one of these shows is happening after your local news. What’s 60 years of that for? Seventy years of that, at this point.

I mean, it’s a really good question. They’re trying to answer this question. I think you have two narratives about this that kind of contradict each other. On one level, the internet has made all of its old uses obsolete.

Right. So I’m saying after the local news, for instance, but are you really experiencing Jimmy Kimmel when the local news on your ABC affiliate goes off the air?

I mean, a lot of people aren’t, right? So traditionally, it was so you could joke about the day’s news, what happened. You could sum up the day before you went to sleep. And sometimes, it was kind of a sleepy, soothing joke like Johnny Carson.

And other times, it was a little more subversive joke like, say, David Letterman. But now, by the time late night comes around, everybody’s already made jokes about the news on social media, TikTok, etc. So that purpose is done. And then you’ve got the purpose of conversations with people promoting stuff or guests being funny. That has also been replaced by YouTube, podcasts, and this kind of thing.

So there’s this narrative, which is not entirely wrong, that late night is less and less relevant. There’s less and less of a purpose to it because of the internet, right? At the same time, read the news. The president is attacking — I mean, it’s worth pausing at how crazy — This has never happened, that the president has put a target on all the late night hosts and is attacking them consistently. And arguably, the most effective example of resistance didn’t come from law firms or universities.

Not shots. Not shots at the law firm! Jason Zinoman, speak! Speak your truth!

But came from Jimmy Kimmel.

Yeah.

Came from Jimmy Kimmel. They protested, and they pushed back Disney. They made Disney have a backbone, right? So you can’t exactly call late night irrelevant when it’s —

In the cross-hairs of what we’re going to traditionally say is the most powerful job in the world.

So what explains this? Why did people get so outraged and push back on Disney? Is it simply because people care more about celebrities than they do about law partners? I don’t know. I think that late night is actually more, as you point out, an old form that people have watched with their families. It’s become an institution. I think that it became more political starting with The Daily Show. I should say, the Jon Stewart version, which is 2000-ish.

That made late night much more political, and I think that had huge ramifications over what network late night became.

OK. So we’re talking about this show, which existed on a Viacom channel called Comedy Central.

Yes.

Right? Didn’t have a huge viewership. But the arrival of the Jon Stewart era of The Daily Show goosed these other late night shows that it was not up against, we should say. Because I mean, for people, this is important to say. The Daily Show starts at 11.

Yep.

These late night shows start at 11:35.

Yes.

And so you could — I mean, I, many times, would watch both.

Yes. But wait. The other thing about Stuart, I think, and this relates to “SNL“, there’s sketch in the Daily Show, the correspondents. And the reason this is important is there was a moment when The Daily Show competed with “SNL” as a platform for stars. Think of the number of stars.

I’ve never considered this before.

Steve Carell, Ed Helms, Trevor Noah, obviously, but I’m missing some. Stephen Colbert.

Stephen Colbert. Wyatt Cenac.

Wyatt Cenac!

He’s been on this show before. Great correspondents.

Yep. It became, like “SNL“, a place to make stars. And it really did — You’re right. Not necessarily because of the audience, but it had a huge impact. And even, I remember when Letterman started to get more political.

And it felt like a reaction to the success of The Daily Show.

But I also think that that moment — I mean, it’s also important to think about, because we’re talking about now some kind of shift in terms of politics becoming much more a part of the way late night television functioned. But, I mean, all throughout the Vietnam War, during an assortment of national tragedies, I think what people wanted from a person like Johnny Carson, just to pick the most famous example of that person practicing the art form during these tumultuous times, was to take the temperature down.

Yep.

Right? Johnny Carson would deliver a barbed comment about, maybe, Nixon.

Yep.

I haven’t seen every joke he told during the Vietnam War, but I’m going to guess he didn’t make a lot of jokes about the Vietnam War. And he certainly was good at making fun of Reagan, but Reagan was kind of his homie, in some way.

Oh, yeah.

He was hardcore institutionalist, right?

Oh, yeah.

He was the picture of whatever they mean by institution. Johnny Carson, even if he didn’t want to be — And he still represents, in the minds of many people, a kind of Americana.

They would say he came with the TV.

Right.

And he, I think, of course, deserves most credit for making late night the thing that it became, right? And you’re right. He studiously avoided any kind of politics that would get him in too much trouble.

Nobody was even thinking about —

Yes. But let me ask you this. If some version of Carson was on today, how would we receive him?

He’d be Jimmy Fallon.

Right? I mean, he’s not quite the pal and pet that Jimmy Fallon has made himself into, but he’d be Jimmy Fallon. I mean, that the thing about the Tonight Show, I believe, is that it could never have handled a Letterman, as much as Letterman wanted that job.

Yeah. That’s a good point.

He wanted to host that show so bad.

I don’t how long he would have lasted, but it wouldn’t have been long.

I agree.

Because I think that the guardrails that come with the job, you either don’t see them as guardrails, or you chafe against them. So, I mean, I guess the question here — Because what we’re really talking about is the end of Stephen Colbert’s show.

Yes.

And not just Stephen Colbert’s show, The Late Show. The reasons the show is being canceled include — I mean, because we really don’t know. I’m making quotes with my fingers. The show loses, I’ve read, as much as $40 million a week.

We don’t know.

But I’m just telling you what I read.

No, no. Of course.

But also, the Skydance-Paramount merger. You know?

Yeah.

The interest in eliminating a friction point that also, if you believe what is also being said, is a very expensive thorn in your side if you need the administration to approve this deal.

Yep.

Why not just make something go away and you save a lot of money, whether he’s beloved or not. I mean, maybe somebody was like, “He’ll just find another job. It’s fine.”

Yeah.

But, you know, he’s not the only person making this show every day.

No!

Just to be clear.

Yes.

It’s an enormous staff.

Yes, yes.

And so, I don’t know. What, really, are we losing when this show no longer comes on Monday through Friday?

First of all, I think he’s the best conversationalist on late night right now. I think there’s a soulfulness to Stephen Colbert. He had Keanu Reaves on, and he asked him —

What happens when you die? He had to pause, and he was like —

One thing I know is people will miss you. You can’t imagine Jimmy Fallon on The Tonight Show. You can’t really imagine it on Kimmel.

No. They’d turn it into a game on Jimmy Fallon.

They’d turn it into a game.

Like, “We’re going to play, What Happens When You Die!”

Yes, yes!

Sabrina Carpenter! You ready to go? We’re going to Velcro you off the side of the wall. And Questlove is going to throw a basketball at your head while you answer the question, what happens when you die? Yes, yes. No, there is a —

I love that, by the way. I enjoy the games on The Jimmy Fallon Show.

Look, there’s a play. And look, that’s winning. That was on Ellen’s show. That was on this show. But to some degree, what we lose depends on what replaces it. And what is replacing it? Byron Allen’s Comics Unleashed.

Please, Jason. I just ate. This is not the place to be trying to release my bowels. You know what Norm McDonald said about being on his show, Comics Unleashed? He said, “Comics have never been more leashed.” It’s not going to cause —

This show, by the way, for anybody who has never watched it, is just four comedians sitting around shooting the shit.

Yes.

And often, three of them, you’ve never heard of.

Three of them? And are we counting Byron?

OK, good point.

I have never heard of most people that pass through Comics Unleashed.

It is my job to follow comedy, so I know one. I know one at most, but not much more than that.

So, I don’t know. I feel like I’m actually — What you’re saying is really occurring to me now. I’m done with my CBS affiliate news, my local New York news. Like, good night. They’ve said good night to me. And you mean that I’m going to be sitting here watching Comics Unleashed?

Yes.

Which I’m assuming CBS isn’t even making, because it’s been being made for years.

Well, here’s the interesting thing. It’s a completely different business model. They’re leasing it to Byron Allen. They can’t lose money on it.

Jason.

They can’t. He bought it.

Stop it.

He’s selling the ads.

Great. Fantastic. He’s renting the space.

He’s renting the space. He’s renting the space. So, what does that mean? To me, that says low-risk — because you can’t lose money if you’re leasing it — low reward. Comics Unleashed, the ceiling is very low.

I’m now talking to you, and I’m feeling sadder about what has transpired. I mean, I think that there is a value to this time slot, and I think it’s the same value that it had at the peak of the format, when our parents were considering whether to have us. Right? And it’s the comfort and stability. It’s the thing that I think Jimmy Fallon is always being dinged for trying to provide in terrible times, which is Sabrina Carpenter Velcroed with a basketball coming at her head. I don’t even if that’s a real sketch.

I love this take, because no one makes this case. No one makes the defense of Jimmy Fallon. I think you said Carson would be like Fallon. That’s like the best —

The nicest thing I’ve ever said about Jimmy Fallon.

That anyone’s said about Jimmy Fallon, certainly in the media.

I don’t think he has any of Johnny Carson’s qualities. I just think that the point of him is similar.

Yes. I’m going to “yes and” this take, because I think it’s a good take. And I think that Fallon also, as you put it, lowers the temperature. And despite what I think people think, they know exactly what they’re doing. And who do I mean by “they“? Who’s producing this?

It’s Lorne Michaels.

Lorne Michaels. Lorne Michaels understands things that no other producer does.

Oh, my God. Jason, fuck you! Get out of here.

He understands that yes, the media is going to hate Jimmy Fallon. And maybe the ratings will fluctuate. But he’s providing this old school showbiz need that hasn’t vanished. There’s still people who want that.

I am rolling my eyes so hard at you right now.

You’re going to make me cry!

I hate you.

I did my part, then. I did my part.

All right, fine. I mean, I already believed this in many ways about Fallon, but now I’m just — You know what I’m doing. By extension, Saturday Night Live, I still think the show needs some re-upholstering. And if it went off the air tomorrow, I still wouldn’t shed a tear because I did all that when it turned 50.

But what about The Tonight Show going off the air? How would you feel?

I’d be fine. But the problem that you are identifying, though, is that nothing comes in its place.

Yes.

Right? But, let’s just say something does.

OK.

I’d like to introduce you to a little game we play. It’s called “Late or Hate.”

Oh, no. OK.

Is this person hosting a late night show or do you hate them too much to let them try?

Oh, no!

Let’s give you a bunch of names.

All I gotta say is “Late or hate“?

Late or hate.

All right, all right. Wait. Is this a prediction or what I —

Nah, just like what happens. What would happen if?

Let’s do it.

Amy Poehler.

Oh. Late. Late.

Ziwe.

Late. Late.

Now, what would it be like? I mean, because we already know she does the show. But the problem, the thing that we’re talking about is, as an institution, what would a person like Ziwe need to do?

Ziwe’s got range.

Yeah, sure.

Ziwe had a YouTube show. Then she went to Showtime, had two seasons, was canceled. I thought she was done for.

She can’t be killed.

She cannot be killed. She’s better than ever now. She’s back on YouTube, and she’s not quite doing the same sort of — She’s doing some of the “How many Black friends do you have,” trolling, but it’s a little more traditional. And I think she’s a talent who could, just like the long-lasting late night hosts, evolve into a host. The fact that she was able to reinvent herself now twice, subtly, tells me that she’s got something that could work.

I would definitely watch it. Tina Fey.

As a host?

Yes. You can say hate. It’s contextual.

OK. OK. I mean —

Late or hate, Jason?

Geez. I mean, I love Tina Fey, but as a host?

We all do.

Yeah.

Marc Maron.

No. Hate.

I mean, that’s too neurotic.

Also, I mean, talk about chafing against the format. I just don’t think he’d enjoy the obligations of the job. Ilana Glazer.

Hate.

Kenan Thompson.

That’s interesting.

Longest-serving cast member on Saturday Night Live. A real stalwart in that he is so professional on that show that you barely notice that he’s just doing support work in a lot of these sketches.

Yeah.

He’s not even trying to get a laugh.

I never thought about that.

And still is funny anyway.

Still is funny. It’s actually kind of an inspired idea, because what is he great at? As you say —

If he could do “What’s Up With That?” every night —

He can play off people. What does a talk show do? He makes the other person funny, plays the straight man, has the timing, sets it. He actually has a lot of the skills of a great talk show host. The question is, does he want it? It seems like he’s pretty entrenched where he is, but —

Entrenched? I mean, he could retire tomorrow.

That’s true, but he doesn’t. Why?

I mean, that’s a great question.

I know.

It’s just a good job.

It’s a good job.

It’s a good job. What is he? Is he 50 yet? Is he mid-40s?

I have no idea.

I mean, I just think he seems comfortable in a way that doesn’t bother me.

Yes. No, I agree.

Other people doing that, it might annoy me a little bit, but that show needs an uncle.

Yes.

It needs an uncle.

Yes.

So, with Kenan. Late or hate?

Oh, late. Late, late.

Nick Kroll.

Oh. You know?

Who I just saw in an insurance commercial.

I’m going to say late.

Oh, yeah, I like this one.

I think Nick Kroll has got kind of a variety, like a kind of vaudeville era.

He would come out as somebody.

Yes.

He could be doing a shtick.

There aren’t talents like Nick Kroll anymore, in that he could do a little bit of everything. I actually think that could work. It’s funny, because the late night host isn’t necessarily the most brilliantly talented person.

No.

You know, Eddie Murphy’s not going to be a late night host.

I mean, he’s on this list. So, Eddie Murphy, late or hate?

Oh, my God. You’re not going to get me to say hate for Eddie Murphy, but he’s not a good fit. You want him as a guest, not a host.

He’s a great guest. He’s not a host.

But that’s why I say Kenan makes all the sense in the world. Nick Kroll, he could do characters. He’s sharp.

He could carbonate the format too, right? I just would not trust him to come out as Nick Kroll every night, right? He’d be coming out to do a monologue as the Six Flags old man or something. I don’t know.

What about this? Let’s say you’re king of the world. Saturday Night Live dies. We replace it.

Listen —

Wait a sec. We replace it with a talk show with the DNA of a sketch show. Right? So Nick Kroll does taped sketches for a half hour. OK? He does talk with John Mulaney or whatever for another half hour. And then you can have the last half hour for either weird sketches, or maybe you wouldn’t have it. What do you say?

I say green light the show. But what you’re describing to me — And we’ll just end here. What you’re describing to me is the thing that made Colbert great in the first place, which is The Colbert Report.

Yes, yes. Oh, my God. Yeah.

One of the great feats of performance in the history of being other people, let alone yourself, I would say.

Underrated. Widely underrated. The Colbert Report was like The Daily Show in that it was a fake news show, but he was completely in character. So he would say one thing, and then he would mean something else. And then he had a real guest on who would be in their real voice. So he had to respond to them in real time.

In character.

In character, but also having the second meeting and having it also be funny. It was an incredible improvisational high-wire act that comedy nerds fell in love with and were amazed by, which is why he got the show.

But what I now wonder as we’re talking about this, just to end, is, do you think he has another one of those in him? Impossible. Like, I don’t how he did it as many nights as he did it. But could he do it again?

I think it’s possible. I mean, what that looks — Look. Conan provides the example. There was no greater institutionalist in late night than Conan O’Brien. He was offended when they asked him to move The Tonight Show back half an hour because it would damage the franchise. But he showed all those late night hosts that you can reinvent yourself on podcasts, on Hot Ones, on an HBO travel show, and you can have a bigger impact, and you can host the Oscars.

And be instantly one of the great Oscar hosts.

Exactly. And of all the hosts, he’s closest friends with Colbert. And so I think Colbert, my guess is he’s going to use the Conan thing as a model and have a collection of projects which may or may not be like The Colbert Report.

We’ll see.

Yeah, we’ll see.

I hope it is.

All right, Jason Zinoman. Thank you.

It was a pleasure. This was so much fun, coming on Cannonball.

Thanks for doing it.

Yeah, yeah.

This episode of Cannonball was produced by Janelle Anderson and John White. It was edited by Austin Mitchell. This episode was engineered by Daniel Ramirez. It was recorded by Maddy Masiello, Kyle Grandillo, Nick Pitman, and Samantha Winter. It features original music by Dan Powell and Diane Wong. Our theme music is by Justin Ellington, and Bobby Dougherty took the picture for our show art.

Our audience team is Katie O’Brien and Maria Abdulkov. Our video team is Felice Leon and Brooke Minters. This episode was filmed by Daniele Sarti and Jadzia Erskine. It was edited by Jeremy Rocklin and Amy Marino. We’re on YouTube. Shocker! We’ll be back next week. Thanks for listening, everybody.